I2P Dev Meeting - October 06, 2015

19:59:41 <zzz> 0) Hi 19:59:41 <zzz> 1) 32C3 Budget 19:59:41 <zzz> 2) Other 32C3 todo items - banner, etc. 19:59:41 <zzz> 3) RWC Budget 19:59:44 <zzz> 0) Hi 19:59:47 <zzz> Hi 19:59:50 <eche|on> hi 19:59:53 <dg> hi 19:59:59 <zzz> 1) 32C3 Budget 19:59:59 <cacapo> hi 20:00:23 <zzz> ok, the plan is to do what we did for Toronto, which is to set an overall budget and let echelon handle the details 20:00:43 <hottuna2> i love soylent and you 20:00:46 <hottuna2> oups 20:00:47 <zzz> echelon, what's the total of the travel requests for funds that you got 20:01:06 <eche|on> currently it is roughly 4k and 2 BTC 20:01:56 <hottuna2> as calculated how? 20:02:03 <zzz> ok, were there any excessive requests or request from any randoms that we need to discuss, or was everything reasonable? 20:02:41 <eche|on> all reasonable, non above 1k euro so far, so... all fine 20:02:52 <eche|on> some did wrote too much information, haha 20:03:22 <zzz> and about how much more to pay for CCC tickets, a dinner, gummy snakes and such? 20:04:06 <eche|on> I think dinner will be 500+x, tickets will be 100 each (at 10 ppl roughly) and snakes and small stuff in the 200-300 20:04:24 <eche|on> dinner for 20+x 20:05:04 <zzz> so that's 1800 euros + 4K travel + ~500 for 2 BTC is 6300 euros total, right? 20:05:53 <eche|on> yeah, but we will not scratch up to that, IMHO some of the travel fund will be payed in BTC, and dinner could be cheaper... 20:05:59 <eche|on> so lets say 6k 20:06:34 <eche|on> last year we did have had 1257 without travel costs 20:06:38 <zzz> that sounds pretty reasonable to me, let's throw it open to discussion... what do people think? 20:06:39 <eche|on> and a few tickets 20:07:13 <hottuna2> does that mean we'll be reaching our 10% spending goal per year? 20:07:31 <eche|on> sure 20:07:53 <hottuna2> as in we'll be below 10%? 20:08:01 <zzz> doubt it, we have ~250K and we only spent 4-5K on toronto iirc 20:08:02 <eche|on> sure 20:08:22 <eche|on> wait, 150k, not 250... 20:08:49 <zzz> either way, we're well under 10%, back of the envelope 20:09:02 <eche|on> and currently we spent 5.3k this year 20:09:19 <hottuna2> ok. i'm happy with that. 20:09:22 <zzz> any objections to a 6K Euro budget for CCC? 20:10:05 <zzz> great 20:10:41 <zzz> as always eche|on I think we prefer to reimburse people, but we can pay in advance if people really need it to buy tickets, right? 20:11:25 <hottuna2> is there a way to know how much you'll be reimbursed for? 20:11:25 <eche|on> correct 20:11:44 <zzz> I think we just approved 100% of people's requests, correct? 20:11:49 <eche|on> yes 20:12:05 <zzz> ok, so whatever you asked for is what you'll get hottuna2 20:12:13 <hottuna2> ok 20:12:23 <zzz> thank you very much eche|on I think this process worked well 20:12:27 <zzz> anything else on 1) ? 20:12:53 <zzz> 2) Other 32C3 todo items - banner, etc. 20:13:05 <eche|on> banner is still in toronto 20:13:10 <eche|on> poster - we need a poster 20:13:28 <zzz> DECT phones part 2? banner? poster? what needs to be done, any volunteers? 20:13:35 <eche|on> we need a table (I try to get into wiki and make some page about our group) 20:13:45 <hottuna2> who has the banner? 20:13:57 <hottuna2> I do not have it. 20:13:57 <str4d> j0 20:13:58 <eche|on> it was at toronto hacklab 20:14:13 <hottuna2> should I bring the podium graphic from i2pcon? 20:14:40 <zzz> hottuna2, can you be in charge of finding the banner in Toronto and bringing it? 20:14:53 <eche|on> DECT phones could be done, but I do not know, everyone has a mobile, Wifi available... 20:15:13 <zzz> maybe twitter DM has rendered DECT obsolete 20:15:15 <hottuna2> zzz, will do. 20:15:19 <eche|on> hottuna2: there was a twitter discussion with sadie about the banner and let her bring it to hamburg 20:15:23 <dg> i'm just going to twitter 20:15:41 <dg> irc if no response 20:15:50 <hottuna2> do we need any other marketing type of material? 20:15:50 <eche|on> table needs to be reserved asap 20:15:59 <eche|on> stickers 20:16:06 <zzz> eche|on, you volunteered to reserve the table? 20:16:28 <eche|on> a folder (3 columns, folded) with basic informations would really help, but not available 20:16:44 <eche|on> zzz: I can try to reserve the table on 26th ahead of cinema 20:16:56 <eche|on> or better: I try my best to reserve it 20:17:00 <dg> usual place, or? 20:17:10 <eche|on> dg: would be best, noisysquare 20:17:11 <zzz> yeah, but you volunteered to sign up on the wiki, right echelon? 20:17:13 <dg> just a question: how big is the table usually? 20:17:24 <eche|on> yeah, I try to do the wiki, also 20:17:28 <zzz> 8-10 20:17:30 <cacapo> eche|on: didn't we have a folder contest a while back 20:17:31 <dg> eche|on: ah good 20:17:32 <hottuna2> Sadie says Hi from twitter 20:17:36 <dg> zzz: so room for everyone? 20:17:38 <eche|on> the table is mostly a round table for 8-10, or a square table 20:17:51 <dg> hottuna2: she needs2irc 20:17:56 <zzz> we're never all there at the same time, not to worry 20:17:58 <eche|on> cacapo: yeah, but the results of fodler contest were not useable AFAIR 20:18:03 <hottuna2> that's what I'm telling her 20:18:20 <dg> alright :) 20:18:34 <zzz> there was also the idea of USB stick giveaways, I looked into it, looks like $2 in bulk for small-capacity 20:18:41 <dg> i'm waiting for schedule so i can plan my day 20:18:42 <eche|on> http://echelon.i2p/29c3/ 20:18:46 <iRelay> Title: 29C3 I2P contest (at echelon.i2p) 20:18:51 <dg> know when to duck in/out 20:19:29 <eche|on> dg: usual we meet in 10-12am and leave after 1am... 20:19:47 <zzz> so re: poster, who is looking into that? 20:19:48 <eche|on> zzz: the USB sticks are nice 20:20:03 <eche|on> but I do not know if really useful 20:20:13 <hottuna2> so the 2015 wiki for 32c3 does not appear to be open yet 20:20:28 <eche|on> hottuna2: correct 20:20:36 <dg> eche|on: past my bedtime ;) fits my lie ins 20:20:43 <zzz> I'm not humping hundreds of USBs across the ocean. Dunno if too late to get logo'ed ones 20:20:46 <dg> is the CCH open all night? 20:20:58 <eche|on> dg: CCH is open 24/7 20:21:08 <zzz> let's defer talk about CCC basics and logistics for now 20:21:20 <dg> ok, thx eche|on 20:21:22 <zzz> this agenda item is for prep only 20:21:36 <eche|on> zzz: 2 weeks time on one sender 20:22:07 <zzz> anybody want to volunteer for a poster or for USB sticks? 20:22:29 <zzz> and what was the answer on stickers? 20:22:32 <eche|on> but a USB stick/card is around 4-6 eeach 20:22:48 <zzz> I saw them for about $2 on ebay 20:22:58 <hottuna2> i'm not sure i'm I understand the idea behind the usb sticks 20:23:08 <zzz> but those weren't customized I dont think 20:23:15 <dg> would we bundle i2p, just put our logo on it, or...? 20:23:22 <zzz> both 20:23:44 <hottuna2> not sure I feel that's a good use of money. if we were tails it would've been a different story 20:24:41 <eche|on> I am not really a fan of USB in this pricy area, as we would need 100+x, thats at least 500 20:24:45 <eche|on> for printed ones 20:24:47 <zzz> ok 20:24:51 <eche|on> with a less use 20:25:10 <zzz> so lets skip the USB sticks. What about stickers? How's the supply over there? Did you bring them all over here or? 20:25:17 <str4d> hottuna2: we don't even need to give aaway the USBs 20:25:24 <eche|on> I still got stickers left 20:25:42 <comradenosebleed> zzz: i have a bunch of stickers that tuna gave me as well, i don't mind bringing them with me 20:25:44 <str4d> If they are decent enough, could sell at cost 20:25:45 <eche|on> but some of the toronto connections wanted to create a new design AFAIK. 20:25:55 <comradenosebleed> (sorry tuna, i'm trying to give out as many as i can) 20:26:05 <dg> i might have some stickers 20:26:11 <eche|on> str4d: I do not like to sell and handle some money beside my debit card on CCC 20:26:16 <zzz> eche|on, you have enough for CCC or you need comradenosebleed to bring some? 20:26:30 <hottuna2> do we want to get some more t-shirts 20:26:40 <eche|on> I got enough for CCC, but thats my last I got 20:26:53 <comradenosebleed> i probably have 200 or so sitting on my desk, i have no problems bringing them with me 20:27:07 <eche|on> so I need a new design, or I get another 10k with the same design 20:27:13 <hottuna2> and a separate question, do we want to sell them? 20:27:23 <hottuna2> eche|on: I would like to get a new design made 20:27:33 <hottuna2> before new stickers are ordered 20:27:36 <zzz> let's defer buying more stickers for now if we have enough for CCC and there's potential for a new design 20:27:44 <eche|on> right 20:27:51 <zzz> no, I don't think we should sell them 20:27:53 <dg> will bring some anyway 20:28:02 <hottuna2> zzz, agreed. 20:28:12 <str4d> no one sells stickers at cons :P 20:28:21 <str4d> The advertizing alone covers it 20:28:22 <hottuna2> still, do we want to get more t-shirts? 20:28:43 <eche|on> hottuna2: we can ask in zzz.i2p for visitors (i2p team) needing/wanting a shirt. at least dg and str4d need them 20:28:46 <str4d> (oh wait, t-shirts, nvm) 20:28:46 <eche|on> yes 20:28:56 <zzz> I say no to t-shirts. too much of a hassle to sell, and pretty much everybody has one, right? 20:29:05 <str4d> I don't 20:29:11 <str4d> I won't be at CCC tho 20:29:13 <eche|on> and postman postman !?? 20:29:20 <eche|on> oh, sry... 20:29:20 <dg> postman is joining us btw :) 20:29:29 <zzz> for the one-offs, they can buy it on spreadshirt 20:29:40 <zzz> if they want 20:30:04 <str4d> That was my plan :) 20:30:19 <zzz> what was the answer on the poster? Maybe tuna and sadie will do something, maybe not? 20:30:22 <dg> will get one too, no need to order more for the project 20:30:37 <zzz> is the timothy leary poster still around? 20:31:27 <hottuna2> zzz, so no t-shirt for dg or postman? 20:31:37 <hottuna2> I don't mind ordering/bringing them. 20:31:40 <postman> hey, i would take one 20:31:49 <eche|on> http://echelon.i2p/29c3/user5/poster/final_with_garlic.webp 20:32:03 <eche|on> zzz: that one? 20:32:06 <dg> I'd like a yellow one if you've got one but I'll order it myself if not 20:32:43 <hottuna2> dg, postman what sizes are you? 20:32:45 <zzz> sounds like it's between tuna and postman and dg to figure out t-shirts, whether tuna orders them or the others just order their own 20:32:56 <eche|on> t-shirt costs can be refunded on 32C3 for team members 20:33:03 <dg> yeah sorry we'll leave it for later :) 20:33:26 <zzz> ok, so the project will reimburse for t-shirts for those that don't have them 20:33:34 <zzz> any objections to that? 20:33:41 <eche|on> we did pay the other shirts already 20:33:48 <zzz> yup 20:34:31 <zzz> ok, sounds like we don't have a poster answer atm, but no big deal if we don't get one 20:34:31 <eche|on> date for dinner pre-announce? 20:34:32 <hottuna2> no 20:34:32 <hottuna2> that's how it's been done previously 20:34:39 <zzz> yes eche|on that's the leary poster 20:35:09 <zzz> eche|on, you have a proposal for which nite for dinner? 20:35:42 <eche|on> hmm, 27th is a bit early, but still fine. 28th or 29th are fine, too. But I need to wait for talk schedule 20:36:03 <zzz> ok, maybe let's pencil in 28th, subject to change 20:36:08 <zzz> anything else on 2) ? 20:36:09 <eche|on> We can do the 27th, its sunday, first evening, all are jet-lagged, no one wants beer, cheap^^ 20:36:49 <zzz> last call for 2) 20:36:51 <dg> no thanks for 27th 20:37:20 <zzz> 3) RWC Budget 20:37:36 <zzz> eche|on, any requests for RWC funding? What's the total? 20:37:51 <eche|on> yeah, thats a bit non-anon, as I got one request of 500 for hotel costs at RWC 20:38:20 <zzz> sounds reasonable, any objections? 20:38:25 <eche|on> no 20:38:30 <eche|on> if the paper is good, all fine^^ 20:38:51 <eche|on> and it is 2016, new year, new 10% *g* 20:39:24 <zzz> I encourage anybody that can get to RWC to check it out, it's a good conference 20:39:35 <zzz> anything else on 3) ? 20:39:40 <eche|on> to far away from me 20:39:53 <eche|on> although interesting, sure 20:39:55 <dg> too far & incompatible w/ CCC 20:40:50 <zzz> ok, any other topics? I know i shot down i2pcontrol, 32c3 talk, and forum replacement over on the zzz.i2p thread, but if anybody wants to discuss _briefly_ speak up now 20:41:33 <hottuna2> yeah. i'd like to talk about forum.i2p 20:41:38 <hottuna2> do we want to replace it? 20:41:52 <dg> just wrt forum replacement, we're open to it and discussing it. if anyone thinks it's a good idea for us to do it, hit up postman/myself/eche|on. we're in a position to run one, but we dunno if there's much support 20:42:33 <zzz> I'll paste in my position from zzz.i2p, others may disagree, that's fine 20:42:35 <hottuna2> i think we should have a public facing place for discussions 20:42:54 <zzz> My consistent view has been that users will vote with their feet, let a thousand flowers bloom, etc. etc. It's not necessary or even wise for us to anoint a replacement. One or more are free to apply for placement on the console home page following our usual process. If somebody wants to set up a forum site, they should do so, 20:43:18 <hottuna2> I don't agree. 20:43:19 <dg> hottuna2: while I'm very open about a forum, what is not open about zzz.i2p? for the record it's unlikely a forum.i2p run by postman/echelon/myself will be on clearnet 20:43:43 <hottuna2> I think we should have a clearnet forum. 20:43:47 <zzz> zzz.i2p is not open to all topics 20:44:01 <hottuna2> interacting with i2p now is like interacting with a brick. 20:44:06 <zzz> forums get _hammered_ by spiders via inproxies 20:45:15 <zzz> and hammered by spam via inproxies 20:45:15 <hottuna2> there's the irc and zzz.i2p. that is it as far as public communications go with i2p 20:45:15 <hottuna2> how are we to attract people new to anonymity tools if we're not even available to these people? 20:45:15 <eche|on> zzz.i2p is dev talk, a user talk forum would be nice, but it cannot be run on clearnet 20:45:15 <zzz> I'd like to see more use of the blog on our website by the PR team 20:45:16 <hottuna2> I get that running a forum is highly inconvenient. 20:45:19 <eche|on> forum.i2p is currently a good forum, I keep it as clean as I like 20:45:36 <dg> administering one is fine, clearnet is going to be difficult. It's possible but... 20:45:38 <zzz> forum will be dead by year-end due to rekey 20:45:38 <hottuna2> but our blog does not support communication both ways. the lbog is just a broadcasting tool. 20:45:53 <dg> I see that clearnet would be helpful for support though. 20:46:02 <hottuna2> so this is a relevant topic to try to deal with as soon as possible. 20:46:38 <zzz> anybody wants to run a (or "the") forum replacement? go for it, you don't need anybody's permission 20:46:42 <hottuna2> support and also attracting new developers. showing people the topics we are discussing is a way to attract developers and people of all skill-levels 20:46:50 <str4d> I don't see a simple way to add a blog without going beyond the near-static approach 20:47:19 <dg> the irc2p team is up for it, but I don't know how to handle the clearnet problem 20:47:21 <zzz> hottuna2, nobody's saying a forum isn't a good thing 20:47:47 <str4d> comment section to the* 20:47:53 <hottuna2> so we agree that having one would be helpful to us? 20:47:55 <eche|on> dg: forum.i2p was clearnet, it did not went out well, was closed and all is fine 20:48:09 <zzz> I declared forum.i2p dead back in January. There's been plenty of time. 20:48:16 <hottuna2> and we also agree that we want to reach out and attract newbies to join i2p? 20:48:23 <dg> eche|on: it would be helpful for user supports though 20:48:36 <hottuna2> having it be more than a vaporware goal requires action 20:48:37 <eche|on> dg: not worth the hassle 20:48:42 <zzz> hottuna2, agreed forums are good. Not sure if one of us needs to run one. And not sure I've heard anybody volunteering. 20:49:08 <dg> I don't care about handling the spam, I just want to remain anonymous and you can't do that while running a clearnet site 20:49:23 <eche|on> yes 20:50:46 <hottuna2> dg, could I or someone else rent the root server? 20:50:46 <eche|on> but really, you do not want the i2p forum clearnet 20:50:46 <hottuna2> and you have access to it through i2p+ssh? 20:50:46 <zzz> so perhaps dg as admin combined with some server resources could be a solution 20:50:46 <dg> hottuna2: That's something we can discuss if you (or someone else) is comfortable with the cost 20:50:46 <hottuna2> eche|on: I want the forum to be clearnet and on i2p 20:50:46 <eche|on> hottuna2: you will loose it. 20:50:46 <eche|on> forum.i2p has had massive spam issues 20:50:46 <dg> eche|on: I know clearnet can be a problem but a lot of users like it as a support mechanism 20:50:46 <dg> irc is not for everyone, especially where we have the "deep sleep chamber" 20:50:46 <eche|on> thats why it was closed down 20:50:46 <zzz> sure, clearnet a nice dream, maybe solveable, maybe not 20:50:50 <eche|on> forum.i2p is still a good support channel 20:50:54 <hottuna2> dg, i'm comfortable with that, and also think that i2p would re-imburse an forum server 20:51:24 <dg> happy to try it and if it doesn't work, we'll be i2p only. I don't know about i2p reimbursing it (not my decision though), but then again, i2p already reimburses core services... 20:51:25 <comradenosebleed> How many moderators were around on the forum while it was clearnet? If we had more mods we would be able to trim down on abuse, spam, etc. 20:51:35 <hottuna2> eche|on: eche|on: would i2p sponsor a forum machine? 20:51:35 <dg> comradenosebleed: afaik it was just eche|on 20:51:43 <eche|on> comradenosebleed: we did have had at least 5-10 people 20:51:49 <dg> hottuna2: I'm happy to admin in any case, just don't want to put a burden on you. 20:51:53 <eche|on> but a damned stupid guy spammed and did some DDOS 20:52:06 <hottuna2> dg, would you volunteer to set up and admin a clearner+hidden forum? 20:52:07 <zzz> dg maybe you can estimate bandwidth/processing power requirements and put together a proposal? 20:52:25 <dg> hottuna2, zzz: OK, i'll work with hottuna2 on that and we can figure out a proposal 20:52:36 <dg> hottuna2: as long as I can be anon still, no problem 20:52:38 <hottuna2> getting a quite powerful server from hertzner is about 30/month 20:52:42 <zzz> I'm still not in favor but willing to listen 20:52:55 <zzz> we have spare VM's now but depends on load 20:53:02 <zzz> ok anything else on forum? 20:53:06 <zzz> anything else for the meeting? 20:53:11 <eche|on> also while being clearnet you cannot hsot a lot of topics which are right now in forum.i2p 20:53:11 * zzz warms up the baffer 20:53:28 <hottuna2> zzz, eche|on: re spare vms, do we want to place all of our infrastructure on the same host? 20:53:30 <eche|on> e.g. you will need a native russian guy for the forum to admin it 20:53:31 <comradenosebleed> I volunteer myself as a mod if we put up a clearnet forum. As much as I hate to suggest cloudflare to host it, they do have excellent ddos prevention 20:54:01 <hottuna2> comradenosebleed: noted 20:54:02 <eche|on> and tha tone would need to know the rules of the country the host is hosted in (hetzner is german, german has some strange laws, e.g.) 20:54:15 <zzz> you all feel free to continue the forum talk, however I... am... 20:54:23 <eche|on> baffing! 20:54:25 <zzz> .. *baffing* the meeting closed