I2P Dev Meeting - August 17, 2004

14:05 <jrandom> 0) hi 14:05 <jrandom> 1) Network status and 0.3.4.3 14:05 <jrandom> 2) Stasher 14:06 <jrandom> 3) ??? 14:06 <jrandom> 0) hi 14:06 * jrandom waves to all the i[2i]p & freenode gang 14:06 * hypercubus waves 14:06 <jrandom> weekly status notes posted a few seconds ago to http://dev.i2p.net/pipermail/i2p/2004-August/000409.html 14:06 <deer> <oOo_itwop> It's Show Time ! 14:07 <deer> <mule> seems i2p irc doesn't love me. or it wants to keep me hot longer by regular interruptions 14:07 <jrandom> heh, yeah, that actually leads us in to 1) Network status and 0.3.4.3 :) 14:07 <jrandom> the network is pretty shitty right now 14:07 <kaji> yep 14:08 <jrandom> the problems are showing up largely from incompatabilities with the different releases that people are running, which has been injecting all sorts of neat ways to break things 14:09 <jrandom> if you check the links in the email, you can see the flooding and netDb DoS that has gone on, but it has largely subsided 14:09 <jrandom> we still do have a half dozen people running old releases (and probably 20-25 people running vanilla 0.3.4.2, with its own problems) 14:10 <jrandom> i appreciate your patience as we move forward on this. i dont want to rush a new release without first being able to effeciently route around bad nodes 14:10 <jrandom> in the past we have been able to route around bad nodes that merely perform poorly, but havent had to deal with nodes who do Bad Things 14:11 <deer> <oOo_itwop> Guinea pigs bows to jrandom ! 14:11 <duck> will the next release be backward compatible? 14:11 <jrandom> perhaps duck. if we can work around those old nodes, there's no reason to make it incompatible 14:12 <duck> cool 14:12 <jrandom> anyway, there's lots of activity going on, even though y'all aren't seeing any new releases yet 14:13 <jrandom> i dont know when 0.3.4.3 will be out. perhaps tomorrow, or perhaps later this week. 14:14 <jrandom> anyone have any questions / comments / concerns they'd like to bring up wrt network status? 14:14 <kaji> will *.3 have hyper's new gui install? 14:14 <jrandom> probably not 14:14 <deer> <mule> the network looks good to me in the profiles of my boxes, just that i frequently drop 14:15 <jrandom> yeah, i understand mule. the irc con has been pretty bad for me too, but its been getting better lately 14:15 <deer> <mule> but i missed most of your discussion, so i'll shut up for now 14:15 <jrandom> if you want to try pulling from CVS, that should have an improvement, but there are frequent updates so you may want to wait until the release 14:16 <jrandom> ok anything else? if not, moving briskly along to 2) Stasher 14:16 <kaji> woot stasher 14:17 <jrandom> stasher is looking pretty cool. still quite limited functionality, but its making progress 14:17 <jrandom> if aum were awake he could give us an update... 14:17 <jrandom> aum: ping? :) 14:17 <kaji> /kick aum 14:18 <jrandom> (its early for him though, so he is probably still sleeping) 14:18 <duck> how selfish 14:18 <hypercubus> i'm impressed by it so far 14:18 <jrandom> Anyway, installing and running stasher is pretty painless, so if you can help him test it out, that'd be great 14:18 <jrandom> yeah, mos' def' 14:18 <hypercubus> it has allowed me to pull off mass goatse'ing 14:19 <jrandom> and whats an app without a goatse, 'eh? 14:19 <hypercubus> you gotta love an app that lets you upload goatse to someone's drive ;-) 14:19 <aum> pong 14:19 <jrandom> w0ah 14:19 <jrandom> 'mornin aum 14:19 <deer> <ardvark> quick question: do I get stasher via i2p CVS? 14:19 <aum> hi all 14:19 <jrandom> ardvark: in i2p/apps/stasher/ 14:19 <aum> ardvark: hi!!!! :) long time! 14:20 <deer> <ardvark> yes hi aum! good to see you mate! 14:20 <aum> ardvark: prolly easier via tarball - http://stasher.i2p or http://www.freenet.org.nz/python/stasher 14:21 <deer> <ardvark> ok aum, I got the tarball but needs other stuff it says? I'll not hold back the meeting, maybe I can contact you? 14:21 <aum> sure thing 14:22 <hypercubus> so, any update on stasher aum? ;-) 14:23 <aum> small update, i've added a '-l' option which allows local-only get/put 14:23 <aum> also, thinking of implementing a 'put' option which returns immediately 14:24 <aum> last night, was thinking thru issues of implementing freenet keytypes 14:24 <hypercubus> i'd like to request that successful put operations return a status... scp and many other command line net apps do this 14:24 <jrandom> SSK would quite kick ass 14:25 <jrandom> (while CHK is of course what imho is most essential) 14:25 <MikeW> One thing I always found interesting about freenet was: It would tell you why there could be high CPU usage. Sometimes (usually at startup for a minute or two) and randomly, CPU usage spikes to 100%, perhaps a estimation why it thinks java is eating my cpu? 14:25 <deer> <oOo> Splitfiles ^^ 14:26 <jrandom> MikeW: if i2p is eating your CPU there is most certainly something broken going on 14:26 <aum> i've tentatively implemented splitfiles already, but haven't enabled it - want to test locally first 14:26 <jrandom> MikeW: you can tell exactly whats going on in your router by looking at the 'current job' in the router console, which is (almost always) where the CPU crunch is 14:26 <jrandom> ah cool aum 14:27 <aum> due to a recursive algo, the splitfiles thing should allow unlimited file sizes when it's done 14:27 <deer> <oOo> Great, splitfiles are mandatory for serious goatse and pr0n stuff... 14:27 <deer> <identiguy> aum: does that include FEC? 14:27 <aum> fec not needed 14:27 <aum> fec is only required on flaky networks 14:27 <deer> <identiguy> Ah, I see. 14:27 <aum> i'm using kademlia, which has far better retrievability guarantee 14:27 <duck> unless nodes go down 14:28 <aum> plus, i can't be fscked doing fec anyway, it's a pain 14:28 <aum> duck: there's redundancy - refer the 'k' value in kademlia 14:28 <jrandom> duck: with a k of 20, even without any republishing it'd be ok ;) 14:28 <duck> heh, okay 14:28 <deer> <mule> aum: fec might help in case a number of nodes are removed 14:28 <jrandom> (and with republishing, it'd only hurt if all k died at the same time) 14:28 <aum> naah, i'll just increase k 14:28 <jrandom> k of 20 imho is pretty substantial 14:29 <jrandom> (since that means you have 20 full replicas of the file) 14:29 <hypercubus> users can always use standalone fec tools 14:29 <MikeW> jrandom: Under JobQueue, runners:1, active jobs:0, just finished:1, ready/waiting: 0, timed: 28 14:29 <aum> that means 20 goatses, guys :P 14:29 <hypercubus> and publish the results 14:29 <duck> what about the britneyspears effect? 14:29 <duck> of very popular keys ending up on 1 node 14:29 <jrandom> (aka insert a 740MB file and you get 14.8GB of data you need to send) 14:30 <aum> duck: popularity is not a concept in kademlia 14:30 <duck> (ofcourse with 32KB keys that might not be terrible) 14:30 <jrandom> ok cool MikeW, but is i2p eating your CPU now? 14:30 <deer> <ardvark> all these kademlia messages I see on i2p are stasher related? 14:30 <MikeW> jrandom: yes 14:30 <aum> duck: and kademlia has no relaying 14:30 <hypercubus> ardvark: the stuff in the router console is the netdb kad implementation 14:31 <aum> the ideas of 'relaying', 'popularity', 'caching' etc are for freenet, which has to expose itself naked to the world, without the cloaking of I2P 14:31 <deer> <ardvark> runnin i2p and tor here and my cpu usage is at 3% now so :/ *shrug* 14:31 <jrandom> MikeW: then your router is unable to maintain connections and is gobbling CPU doing lots of concurrent connection establishment 14:31 <duck> ok, my brain is rotten by freenet 14:31 <duck> please have mercy :) 14:31 <deer> * shendaras comforts. 14:31 <jrandom> MikeW: if you can hang around after the meeting to debug, that'd be great 14:32 <MikeW> will do 14:32 <jrandom> ok cool aum, anything people can do to help? 14:32 <jrandom> or should we just kick the tires and file bugs? 14:33 <duck> I am trying to get used to leo 14:33 <aum> yep, file bugs to the list, if that's ok people 14:33 <duck> already like it more than eclipse 14:33 <hypercubus> what's leo? 14:33 <jrandom> (uh oh, here comes the rant ;) 14:33 <aum> duck: i use nothing but leo these days - except emacs for quick hacks, and zile for even quicker hacks 14:34 <hypercubus> as long as you're not using vi or emacs ;-) 14:34 <aum> http://leo.sf.net - gives you an outline view of your code 14:34 <hypercubus> but i'll have to try this leo myself 14:34 <aum> leo even integrates with emacs if you want 14:34 <hypercubus> it's not an editor? 14:35 <aum> <bile> 14:35 <aum> fucking msvc - it allows __int64 for 64-bit ints, but doesn't allow 'LL' or 'ULL' for 64-bit int literals 14:35 <aum> !! 14:35 <aum> </bile> 14:35 <hypercubus> ah i see 14:37 <jrandom> ok, if thats that, then we've got nothing left and can move to 3) ??? 14:37 <jrandom> anyone have anything else they want to bring up? 14:37 <hypercubus> yeah i guess i'll say a bit about the new direction of the installer 14:37 <jrandom> ok word 14:38 <hypercubus> from 0.4 onward, command line users will merely grab the i2p tarball and unpack it, then run a script to start the router and pop open the router console in lynx or whatever 14:39 <hypercubus> so not much has changed, except you don't have to go through a silly Q/A session with an installer 14:39 <hypercubus> you do all the configuration in the router console 14:39 <hypercubus> for GUI users, we have something spiffy 14:39 <jrandom> (w00t) 14:40 <hypercubus> which you can preview at http://files.hypercubus.i2p/install.jar 14:40 <jrandom> or from cvs (ant pkg ; java -jar install.jar) right? 14:40 <aum> hypercubus: how are you going with the winstaller? does it autodetect/autodownload/autoinstall java ? 14:41 <hypercubus> menu shortcuts are forthcoming, as well as systray integration and a way to install the router as a daemon 14:41 <aum> daemon? as in windows 'service' ? 14:41 <hypercubus> no, at least not for the forseeable future, they will need to click on a link on the i2p site that takes them to the official java download page 14:42 <hypercubus> the installer requires java, but that's ok since i2p does as well 14:42 <aum> hypercubus: sorry, but that'll lose 80% of users 14:42 <hypercubus> name one java project that doesn't do that 14:42 <jrandom> we'll have it eventually. 14:42 <jrandom> just not now. 14:42 <aum> freenet did it well - their winstaller takes you through the download 14:43 <jrandom> (we have so many other more important fish to fry. we dont *want* thousands upon thousands of users now) 14:43 <hypercubus> that's a consideration for 1.0 14:43 <hypercubus> i have most of the code to pull it off done already 14:43 <aum> jrandom: i thought you said it would be for 0.4 14:43 <deer> <mule> so you should require that java is built from source :) 14:44 <jrandom> the new installer will be for 0.4 14:44 <hypercubus> we have scrapped all the code i have written thus far 14:44 <hypercubus> in favor of IzPack 14:44 <hypercubus> http://izpack.sf.net 14:44 <jrandom> we can offer a 15MB download bundling the two as one, but most users who will use i2p prior to 1.0 will know what "java" is 14:45 <hypercubus> this gives me time to perfect a fully public domain java installer framework which i eventually hope to move i2p back to 14:45 <hypercubus> but the priority right now is to get rid of the awful current installer ;-) 14:46 <hypercubus> (no offense to whoever hacked it together) 14:46 <deer> <shendaras> Got a 404.... 14:46 <duck> http://www.izforge.com/izpack/ 14:46 <hypercubus> http://www.izforge.com/izpack/ 14:47 <hypercubus> sorry about that 14:47 <hypercubus> anyhow, i would appreciate feedback on the preview installer i've put up on my eepsite 14:48 <hypercubus> it's been tested on *nix and windows, it should work on os x and solaris too 14:48 <jrandom> r0x0r 14:48 <duck> its sweet 14:48 <jrandom> yeah, it kicks ass 14:49 <hypercubus> i may hack izpack to remove those dorky icons from the buttons 14:49 <deer> <mule> hypercubus: will it destroy existing configurations or preserve them? 14:49 <hypercubus> there are no config files contained in the package 14:49 <hypercubus> so it will only overwrite jars and wars 14:49 <jrandom> (at the moment ;) 14:49 <hypercubus> well, we'll take configs into account 14:49 <deer> <mule> k, thanks 14:49 <duck> how will one start the whole jetty thang? 14:50 <duck> still a sh/bat ? 14:50 <jrandom> yes 14:50 <jrandom> the router will start w/ a script, and/or a service (calling that script) 14:50 <hypercubus> yes, and i'll throw in an exe for win users 14:50 <jrandom> w00t 14:50 <hypercubus> that will launch from the Start menu 14:50 <hypercubus> the Windows Start menu 14:51 <hypercubus> should have jetty working as a windows service by tomorrow 14:51 * jrandom mumbles *its not jetty, its i2p* 14:51 <hypercubus> ah right ;-) 14:52 <hypercubus> jetty comes with a win32 service wrapper though 14:52 <hypercubus> we can use it to wrap anything 14:52 <jrandom> yeah, there are 3-4 PD/BSD java service wrappers out there 14:52 <hypercubus> yeah, there are probably some for linux too 14:53 <jrandom> well, linux service == init script :) 14:53 <hypercubus> yeah but linux services are handled differently among even the major distros 14:53 <hypercubus> for example, gentoo uses the rc-setup script scheme 14:54 <jrandom> w3rd 14:54 <hypercubus> anyhow, i'll get it working for all the major distros and *bsd's 14:54 <hypercubus> if not more 14:55 <hypercubus> oops, s/rc-setup/rc-update/ 14:55 <hypercubus> ok, that covers everything i guess 14:55 <hypercubus> you guys can wake up now ;-) 14:55 <deer> * shendaras yawns 14:55 <jrandom> cool, thanks hyper, sounds good. 14:56 <jrandom> anyone else have anything they want to bring up? 14:56 <aum> sorry if i missed earlier discussion, but.. 14:56 <aum> what's the weather like vis a vis datagram latency etc? 14:57 <jrandom> i dont know about datagrams - the only apps i use run on top of datagrams via streams 14:57 <jrandom> network status is still pretty bad - see status notes @ http://dev.i2p.net/pipermail/i2p/2004-August/000409.html 14:58 <aum> k 14:58 <jrandom> ok, if there's nothing else... 14:58 * jrandom winds up 14:59 * jrandom *baf*s the meeting closed