I2P Dev Meeting - December 21, 2004

13:05 <@jrandom> 0) hi 13:05 <@jrandom> 1) 0.4.2.4 & 0.4.2.5 13:05 <@jrandom> 2) 0.5 strategy 13:05 <@jrandom> 3) naming 13:05 <@jrandom> 4) eepsite roundup 13:05 <@jrandom> 5) ??? 13:06 <@jrandom> 0) hi 13:06 * jrandom waves 13:06 <@jrandom> weekly status notes posted a lil while ago @ http://dev.i2p.net/pipermail/i2p/2004-December/000528.html 13:07 <@jrandom> lets jump on in to 1) 0.4.2.4 & 0.4.2.5 13:08 <@jrandom> for those of you who have already upgraded to 0.4.2.5 - a good 1/3 of the network so far - thanks! 13:09 <@jrandom> i do try to keep a more calm pacing to the releases, but there were some things in 0.4.2.5 that really needed wider deployment 13:10 <Madman2003> 0.4.2.5 is working well for me when it comes to disconnects, but i don't run i2p 24/7(i had quite a few irc disconnects lately) and it's only been a few hours after the release 13:10 <@jrandom> as mentioned later on in the email, i dont have a planned date for when the next bugfix release will be, but we shall see 13:10 <@jrandom> ah great Madman2003 13:10 <@jrandom> yeah, its definitely too early to tell about 0.4.2.5 13:11 <frosk> i used to see periods of high lag on .4, so far none of those with .5, but again, a bit early 13:11 <frosk> (i'm talking about irc lag, of course) 13:11 <@jrandom> the dns bug fixed could manifest itself in large numbers of peers running older releases failing at once, so the sooner people upgrade, the better 13:12 <@duck> is that related with the failures on those manually entering a hostname? 13:12 <@jrandom> yep 13:12 <dm> how useless is the windows system tray I2P icon!?!? 13:12 <@duck> ah, so that is why config.jsp is still friendly 13:13 <Madman2003> anyone have a clue why some still run pre 0.4.2.4 routers?(it's been out a while) 13:13 <@jrandom> dm: its more of a placeholder right now, plus a status icon saying "i2p is running" 13:13 <dm> They have a life? :) 13:13 * jrandom should resent that... 13:14 <redzog> is there a way to do soft-restarts from the command line? 13:14 <@jrandom> redzog: unfortunately not 13:14 <redzog> hmm, pity 13:14 <@jrandom> other than with wget, perhaps 13:14 <redzog> would make it easier to do automatic updates 13:14 <+detonate> i2prouter stop && i2prouter start :) 13:14 <@jrandom> no, nm, wget wouldnt work either 13:14 <@jrandom> (as the form requires interaction) 13:14 <Madman2003> i generally update trough cvs several times in between releases(at best once a day), only takes a few minutes 13:15 <redzog> lwp::simple could manage it 13:15 <redzog> just a POST 13:15 <@jrandom> redzog: support for that would be pretty cool 13:15 <redzog> I'll try to whip something up 13:15 <@jrandom> well, its more than just a post, you need to read the form presented to you then post those fields back 13:16 <+detonate> eventually releases will be further spaced though.. right? 13:16 <@jrandom> (there's a hidden flag to prevent people from doing things like <img src="../../../../../../configservice.jsp?action=restart"> 13:16 <redzog> heh, right 13:16 <@jrandom> right detonate, t'wasn't planned to be this rapid, once a week at most 13:16 <redzog> does the nonce value change? 13:17 <@jrandom> if it didn't, it wouldnt be a nonce ;) 13:17 <redzog> hmm, seems so 13:17 <redzog> well, between sessions, between pageloads... ;) 13:17 <redzog> pageloads it is 13:17 <@jrandom> right 13:17 <@jrandom> ok, anyone have anything else wrt 0.4.2.4/0.4.2.5? 13:18 <@jrandom> i'm sur there'll be more discussion later after we've burnt in the new release more 13:18 <dm> oh, is this a meeting? 13:18 <+detonate> starting up seems to be a lot less smooth 13:18 <+detonate> than 2.3 13:18 <@jrandom> oh? in what way detonate - cpu, lag, memory, time? 13:19 <+detonate> the list of peers takes forever to populate 13:19 <+detonate> and i get a huge number of shitlisted peers 13:19 <+detonate> also the i2ptunnel stuff sometimes hangs, but generally seems to take at least 2x as long to actually start up 13:19 <+detonate> once it's started things smooth out 13:19 <+detonate> it's odd 13:19 <@jrandom> hmm, what does it list for the cause on /logs.jsp#connectionlogs ? 13:20 <ant> <BS314159> I just did a graceful restart into 0.4.2.5. It took 120s to have Local Destinations 13:20 <ant> <BS314159> seems good 13:20 <@jrandom> cool BS314159 - thats pretty much the bare minimum, as we don't start i2ptunnel until 2 minutes after startup :) 13:20 <+detonate> there's nothing out of the ordinary 13:20 <+detonate> a shutdown exception 13:21 <+detonate> but i think i caused that 13:21 <mule> i have pulled over 300M through fcp for a movie with the last release. never been that good before. top rates beyond 40k. great work. 13:21 <@jrandom> wow, nice mule! 13:21 <mule> however i still have serious trouble with recovering from an IP change 13:21 <@jrandom> detonate: hmm, ok, i'd love to debug this further after the meeting or another time you have available 13:22 <+detonate> yeah 13:22 <+detonate> ok 13:22 <dm> tunnel lag: 364ms. What the fuck is going on , the tunnel lag is dropping 100-200ms on each release! 13:22 <@jrandom> ah mule, ok 13:22 <@jrandom> i've got an idea for how we could deal with those hung tcp connections - just toss on a 5m keepalive 13:23 <@jrandom> heh dm, dont worry, it'll get back up again ;) 13:23 <frosk> wow, i only have 261ms here :) 13:24 <@jrandom> ok, if there's nothing else, lets jump on to 2) 0.5 strategy 13:24 <dm> That can't be right... 13:25 <+ugha2p> Looks like I'm late for the meeting again. 13:26 <@jrandom> there's still a lot of work to be done with 0.5, but a broad outline of the process was included in that email 13:26 * jrandom sends ugha2p to the principal's office 13:27 <@jrandom> there are still some details left to be worked out on the tunnel pooling and creation, but i think we've got a few different offerings that will meet the needs of various user bases 13:28 <@jrandom> there'll be some good ol' fashioned documentation posted once most of the kinks in the design are hammered out for y'all's review 13:28 <@jrandom> (currently its taking up ~8 pages in the notebook, should compress well though) 13:29 <kaji> has the meeting started yet? 13:29 <@jrandom> but another one of the tasks listed for 0.5 is "deal with the bandwidth needs of the network", and i have no idea how to plan for that, so we'll play that by ear 13:29 <@jrandom> yes kaji, we're on 2) 0.5 strategy 13:30 <@jrandom> well, thats all i have to say about that at the moment, unless anyone has any questions/comments/concerns? 13:31 <+ugha2p> Wow, most of the routers have already upgraded. 13:31 <+detonate> is filtering http traffic to strip out javascript/etc in the roadmap? 13:31 <+detonate> for 0.5 13:31 <+ugha2p> detonate: No. 13:31 <@jrandom> detonate: 0.6 13:31 <ant> <cat-a-puss> WRT bandwidth, should we enable probabilistic tunnel length, and/or local biased tunnels, for bittorrent as in general BT users have a weaker threat modle? 13:32 <@jrandom> cat-a-puss: yes, definitely. thats one of the big parts of the 0.5 release 13:32 <+ugha2p> detonate: Unless you implement it first. ;) 13:32 <+detonate> i was thinking about it 13:33 <ant> <cat-a-puss> will html filtering be conducted in a seperate process? 13:33 <@jrandom> i think michelle is looking at that too, so if you two wanted to work together (michelle is learning java) that'd rule 13:33 <+detonate> ok 13:33 <@jrandom> cat-a-puss: i know not. 13:34 <+ugha2p> cat-a-puss: Why should it? 13:35 <ant> <cat-a-puss> (I ask because I was thinking of making a proxy that ran all incomming brouser traffic through clamav) That is GPLed so if we could include that in the filter, it would probably be good. 13:35 <@jrandom> cool cat-a-puss! 13:35 <+ugha2p> Some people already use Privoxy for I2P. 13:36 <bens> in general, I'm anti-including-stuff 13:36 <susi23> I would rather see people configuring their browsers right than promising to protect them from malicious code. 13:36 <@jrandom> susi23: no one configures their browser properly 13:36 <@jrandom> especially not joe sixpack 13:37 <frosk> one can wonder if Joe is even able to set a proxy for his browser 13:37 <@jrandom> my personal view is that something cgi-proxy like would be ideal 13:37 <@jrandom> exactly frosk 13:37 <@jrandom> with a cgi-proxy like interface (filtering according to their preferences, safe by default), even a drooling moron could use it 13:38 <bens> I suppose I2P needs multiple versions for multiple markets even more than MS Office 13:38 <@jrandom> 'tis why we have small components and push this stuff out of the router bens ;) 13:38 <Ragnarok> a proxy auto config file would help 13:39 <@jrandom> Ragnarok: we have one, but there are still dangerous things that can be done with it 13:39 <frosk> maybe a specialized i2p browser even (if someone is drowning in free time ;) 13:39 <susi23> ragnarok: that one? http://dev.i2p.net/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/i2p/apps/proxyscript/i2pProxy.pac 13:39 <@jrandom> frosk: on the specialized i2p OS and hardware too, i suppose 13:40 <frosk> hehe, perfect 13:40 <Ragnarok> that's not in the install, though 13:40 * jrandom implements those in the specialized i2p universe 13:40 <susi23> . o O ( perhaps we should try to find a dedicated i2p planet too ) 13:40 <susi23> . o O ( damn, too slow ) 13:40 <mule> ok, we'll sell the hardware :) 13:40 <frosk> you know what they say, to create something from scratch, first create the universe 13:41 <@jrandom> w00t, now all we need are some investors.. 13:41 <bens> seriously, a firefox autoconfigurator might be reasonable 13:41 <@jrandom> bens: the .pac susi linked to above should do the trick 13:41 <bens> not just for proxy; also for the security settings, homepage, etc. 13:41 <@jrandom> we can ship that with the install too, but its insufficient for people who need anonymity (and are not ubergeeks already) 13:42 <@jrandom> hmm, perhaps that sort of thing could go into cervantes' i2p xul app 13:43 <@jrandom> but thats getting further off topic from the 2) 0.5 strategy 13:43 <@jrandom> anyone else have anything for that, or shall we move on to 3) naming? 13:44 -!- Irssi: #i2p: Total of 40 nicks [2 ops, 0 halfops, 6 voices, 32 normal] 13:44 <@jrandom> consider us moved 13:44 <@jrandom> ok, aparently i kind of jumped the gun w/ the 2.0.1 ref of addressbook - Ragnarok, want to give us an update? 13:44 <+ugha2p> jrandom: Can we expect the dates on the roadmap to be correct? 13:45 <@jrandom> ugha2p: they currently reflect my best estimate 13:45 <+ugha2p> jrandom: Ok, right. 13:45 <Ragnarok> it's released now 13:45 <@jrandom> w00t 13:45 <Ragnarok> check ragnarok.i2p 13:45 <Ragnarok> I wasn't planning on releasing it yet, but jrandom forced my hand :) 13:46 <@jrandom> hehe 13:46 <+ugha2p> Ragnarok: Btw, you're missing a link from the homepage. :) 13:46 <Ragnarok> it's just a few bug fixes, nothing major, but it should deal better with some corner cases 13:46 <@jrandom> its on the top right ugha2p 13:47 <Ragnarok> ugha2p: it's on the sidebar 13:47 <Ragnarok> I'll add links to the post as well, though :) 13:47 <mule2> "that'll be the day when i die". daily IP change to set the clock after. 13:48 <Ragnarok> anyway, if everyone could try it out, that'd be nice. Bug reports are always appreciated 13:48 <+ugha2p> Ragnarok: Oh, that sidebar is seriously fucked in Opera. 13:48 <mule2> Lease expired 12773d ago 13:49 <+ugha2p> Ragnarok: Well, not really fucked, but just located at the end of the page. 13:49 <@jrandom> cool Ragnarok, thanks 13:49 <Ragnarok> your window's probably not wide enough 13:49 <+ugha2p> Ragnarok: Right, but it should work with any window size. 13:50 <+ugha2p> So you might want to fix it in the future. :) 13:50 <Ragnarok> ugha2p: should is an interesting choice of words :) 13:50 <Frooze> ah, wrong in mozilla 1.7 too. my window is small though. 13:50 <+ugha2p> Why's that? 13:50 <Frooze> thanks ragnarok. cool stuff. 13:51 <Ragnarok> I may fix it in the future, but it's really low on my priorities 13:51 * jrandom prefers addressbook updates to html fixes 13:52 <Ragnarok> anyhoo, any questions? 13:53 <frosk> thanks for addressbook, Ragnarok, sounds very useful 13:54 <+ugha2p> Is the documented way of loading addressbook the only way, or are there any less intrusive ones? 13:54 <kaji> i just installed it, it rocks 13:54 <Ragnarok> you can start it by hand using "java -jar addresbook.jar <path to i2p/addressbook>" 13:54 <Ragnarok> thank you :) 13:55 <kaji> oh, and i dled version 2.0.0 is there an update someware? 13:55 <Ragnarok> ok, I fixed the column, it was just a stupid mix of absolute and realitive sizes 13:56 <Ragnarok> yep, there's 2.0.1 up now on ragnarok.i2p 13:57 <+ugha2p> I'm getting "Failed to load Main-Class manifest attribute from" now, but never mind, I'll do a restart later. 13:57 <Ragnarok> whoops 13:58 <Ragnarok> that's my bad 13:58 <Ragnarok> I'll try to fix that soon 13:58 <+ugha2p> Ah, okay. :) 13:58 <Ragnarok> there will also be an easy to install .war version soon 13:59 <dm> jrandom: you are a machine 14:00 <@jrandom> wikked, thanks Ragnarok 14:00 <@jrandom> susi23: ping? 14:00 <susi23> 1200ms 14:01 <@jrandom> !thwap 14:01 <@jrandom> anyway, wanna give us a rundown on whats up w/ susidns? 14:01 <@jrandom> or should that wait for later? 14:01 <susi23> do we have time for a more general discussion about naming stuff? 14:02 <susi23> what features we want in the future? 14:03 <@jrandom> some of my thoughts are posted up on http://dev.i2p.net/pipermail/i2p/2004-February/000135.html 14:03 <@jrandom> (for what general features) 14:04 <@jrandom> i think the hardest thing will be weaning people off globally unique human readable names, but with some good interfaces it should be doable 14:04 <Ragnarok> implementing the data structures you outlined in xml is one of my next goals 14:04 <susi23> ok, there is a small writing about attributes at http://susi.i2p/removablekeys.html 14:05 <ant> <Jnymo> wow.. pretty crowded in here tonight 14:05 <bens> ragnarok: have you checked out YAML? Might be easier 14:05 <+ugha2p> Jnymo: Yeah, we're trying to hold a meeting here. 14:05 <Ragnarok> YAML's name is far too apt 14:05 <@jrandom> cool susi23, though i think we'll definitely want to migrate away from the plain hosts.txt format 14:05 <ant> <Quadn-werk> addition of a command line graceful restart? 14:06 <ant> <Jnymo> ugha2p: ah 14:06 <susi23> are there any ideas how to keep names unique in the long run? 14:06 <@jrandom> one of the important parts of the data to be managed in the naming service is for an entry to be signed, requiring some hard structure (or careful xml) 14:07 <@jrandom> i dont believe in globally unique human, human readable, and secure names. 14:07 <@jrandom> (i bundle centralized & secure together) 14:07 <@jrandom> susi23: have you seen http://zooko.com/distnames.html ? 14:07 <Ragnarok> I think using an addressbook like system, the names will end up being mostly unique, since it's in the interest of the person claiming a name not to choose one that's already in use 14:08 <@jrandom> Ragnarok: we'll see. perhaps 14:08 <susi23> i'll check this out 14:08 <bens> I suspect trusted authorities will emerge 14:08 <Ragnarok> well, there already is one 14:08 <frosk> hosts.txt? :) 14:09 <Ragnarok> jrandom's, yeah 14:09 <@jrandom> or if not trusted authorities, names that include the path to uniquely identify it 14:09 <@jrandom> (e.g. "the site orion.i2p calls 'frosk.i2p'") 14:10 <@jrandom> Derek Eddington had some posts along those lines in september - http://dev.i2p.net/pipermail/i2p/2004-September/000432.html 14:10 <bens> frosk.orion.i2p 14:10 <@jrandom> smtp.frosk.ns.orion.i2p 14:11 * jrandom starts building uucp bang paths 14:11 <frosk> hah 14:12 <susi23> ok, what now... how about a "naming roadmap"? :) 14:12 <ant> <Jnymo> you guys have swayed me away from an absolute distributed dns for i2p.. somewhat.. but ducks ideas started me thinking that a trust system might work.. like, a lookup could bring back a list of sites/files, and each could be listed with the amount of trust that the network gives it 14:12 <susi23> once we agreed what to do 14:12 <@jrandom> thats a good idea susi23, wanna write one up? 14:13 <@jrandom> trusting other people's trust has potential, but needs to be done very carefully 14:13 <susi23> I could do this, but I still have no idea WHAT we want to do. There are some decisions to make. 14:14 <@jrandom> (aka only according to the terms that you trust the peers along the chain to the trust author) 14:14 <modulus> there is or there should not be a "network trust" of a site, trust has to be user-centric always 14:14 <@jrandom> susi23: roadmap step 1: decide among $featureset 14:14 <susi23> Or at least we have to develop all ideas into a more precise concept. 14:14 <ant> <Jnymo> well, if it was explicitly simple.. like, if files i2p listed how many sites linked to siteinquestion.i2p 14:15 <Ragnarok> ok, the I've updated the addressbook package with an executable jar. 14:15 <ant> <Jnymo> er, files.i2p 14:15 <@jrandom> jnymo: that turns into a centralized authority - files.i2p 14:15 <modulus> not to say that you could poison the pool of links by establishing a shitload of sites. 14:16 <modulus> googlebombing on i2p 14:16 <ant> <Jnymo> true.. but files i2p could be decentralized 14:16 <susi23> ok, how about collection ideas/information/concepts until, lets say january 14:16 <orion> 'lo all. I see naming is on the table.. *again* :) 14:16 <susi23> then comes the decision phase, ok? 14:16 <@jrandom> sounds good - will you be the point of contact to gather that together? 14:16 <Ragnarok> sure 14:16 <modulus> doesn't matter if the trust aggregate is descentralized, trust has to emanate from the user. anything else can be poisoned imo. 14:17 <susi23> can't we take the mailinglist for this? 14:17 <bob> or perhaps ugha's wiki? 14:17 <ant> <Jnymo> agreed.. but what how to do that? put a little trust meter bar at the top of the web browser? 14:18 <@jrandom> the wiki would be good, we can gather links to all the previous discussions there 14:18 <modulus> jnyo: probably the most feasible solution is to bind to the first name encountered or something. 14:18 <dm> let's all give a hand of applause to jrandom for his wonderful project management 14:18 <susi23> fine 14:18 <modulus> but there are more ways than sausages. 14:19 <susi23> url to the wiki? (for the records) 14:19 <ant> * Jnymo claps 14:19 <@jrandom> ugha.i2p 14:19 * dm claps 14:19 <susi23> ok 14:19 <susi23> then I'm done and ping jrandom back ;) 14:20 <ant> <Jnymo> modulus: so, if i refer a link to someone else, i'm refering them to the site i first binded to.. that might work.. 14:20 <+ugha2p> Looks like jrandom has ping timeouted. 14:20 <@jrandom> ok cool, anything else on nami^W nm, no more on naming. on to the wiki 14:20 <modulus> anyway, if you're linking you'll probably want to put an absolute path in the link, not just a name 14:21 <@jrandom> moving forward to 4) eepsite roundup 14:21 <dm> dm.i2p is up and running 14:21 <@jrandom> cool 14:22 <@jrandom> ok, i dont really have much to add beyond whats mentioned in the mail 14:22 <bob> nice to see an influx of sites! all speedy to access as well! 14:22 <@jrandom> aye, agreed bob 14:22 <bob> orion, thanks for your work.. I use your site daily. 14:22 * jrandom too, the 'last updated' is especially helpful 14:23 <bob> dm: :-) 14:24 <@jrandom> ok, if there's nothing more on that, we can jump to 5) ??? 14:24 <@jrandom> is there anything else people want to bring up for the meeting? 14:24 <ant> <Jnymo> hows the net status? 14:24 <ant> <Jnymo> wrt 4.2.5? 14:25 <@jrandom> its looking good, but the release is only a few hours old, so too soon to tell 14:25 <ant> <Jnymo> oh, heh 14:25 <ant> <Jnymo> any fusenet news? 14:26 <@jrandom> (http://piespy.i2p/i2p/i2p-current.webp heh) 14:26 <frosk> my work on i2pcontent has been largely put aside for some weeks, but the latest version of the document can be read at http://frosk.i2p/i2pcontent.html . if anyone is interested, do read, and do comment harshly if needs be (om irc when i'm not /away or mail to frosk@mail.i2p) 14:26 <frosk> i2pcontent/fusenet/anything ;) 14:26 <ant> <Jnymo> wordicus 14:28 <@jrandom> ok, if there's nothing else... 14:28 <mule2> tons of applause for all the excellent contributions 14:29 <@jrandom> aye, y'all are doing some kickass shit 14:29 <frosk> you too, jrandom :) 14:29 <orion> word. 14:29 <orion> yes, very much so, you too jrandom. 14:29 <scintilla> hear hear! 14:29 <ant> <Jnymo> yea, i noticed on the site, theres less info on how to help out 14:29 <@jrandom> sometimes kickass, sometimes ass kicked ;) 14:29 <orion> HIP HIP 14:30 <ant> <Jnymo> HORRAY 14:30 * orion smiles 14:30 <Frooze> downloaded eclipse today, to learn java over holiday, because y'all are so impressive. 14:30 <@jrandom> jnymo: many of the small easy-to-accomplish tasks have been done 14:30 <@jrandom> ooh wikked Frooze 14:31 <Frooze> so, trouble on horizon. heh 14:31 <@jrandom> jnymo: i really should collect some more of them though and post 'em 14:31 <ant> <Jnymo> jrandom: You still looking for someone to help out on alexandria.i2p? 14:31 <@jrandom> (take cover arizona!) 14:31 * jrandom is not involved in alexandria, but yes, i believe they are still looking for a librarian 14:31 <ant> <Jnymo> learn to swim, folks ;) 14:31 * orion loves pump up the volume references. Vague though they may be. 14:31 <@duck> yes we do 14:31 <@jrandom> :) 14:31 <Ragnarok> jrandom: where is the war actually supposed to go? 14:31 <@jrandom> (orion++) 14:32 <@jrandom> Ragnarok: i2p/webapps/addressbook.war 14:32 <@jrandom> (then restart the router) 14:32 <ant> <Jnymo> duck, you talkint to me? 14:32 <Ragnarok> cool. I shall commence testing 14:32 <@jrandom> r0x0r 14:32 <ant> <Jnymo> duck: is alexandria on your site? 14:33 <@duck> duck.i2p/alexandria/ 14:33 <ant> <Jnymo> word 14:34 <@jrandom> ok, if thats all, we can slide out of here @ the 90m mark.. 14:34 * jrandom winds up 14:34 * jrandom *baf*s the meeting closed