I2P Geliştirici Toplantısı - 9 Aralık 2003

[22:02] <jrand0m> 0) welcome to $num [22:02] <jrand0m> 1) iip status [22:02] <jrand0m> 2) kademlia stuff + idn [22:02] <jrand0m> 3) peer profiling stuff [22:02] <jrand0m> 4) i2p services [22:02] <jrand0m> 5) stuff [22:02] <jrand0m> 0) welcome [22:02] <jrand0m> hi [22:03] <jrand0m> this is meeting 67 or 68... [22:03] <jrand0m> 1) iip status [22:03] <jrand0m> I dunno. anyone know what the situation has been as of late? [22:04] <jrand0m> the iip devs aren't here, so... dunno. [22:04] <jrand0m> [ping] [22:04] <jrand0m> (last week I typed for probably 10 minutes before my client pinged me out...) [22:05] <jrand0m> (i'm not going to type anything else until I get a p0ng, damnit ;) [22:05] *** Nostradumbass (nostradum@anon.iip) has joined channel #iip-dev [22:05] <jrand0m> 'lo Nostradumbass [22:06] <Nostradumbass> hi :) [22:06] <jrand0m> ok cool, so I haven't pinged out, people are just lurking. cool :) [22:06] * jrand0m hops on to the next agenda item [22:06] <Nostradumbass> how's i2p coming? [22:06] <Nostradumbass> sorry? [22:06] <jrand0m> good lead in ;) [22:07] <jrand0m> agenda item 3) i2p 0.2.3 status :) [22:07] *** nerox (~nerox@anon.iip) has joined channel #iip-dev [22:07] <jrand0m> there's been a lot of progress, even though I'm offline. commited a truckload of code a few hours ago [22:07] <jrand0m> that includes an implementation of the kademlia netDb [22:08] <jrand0m> so I'm pretty confident we'll hit the release for 0.2.3 next week (which is basically kademlia netDb + a shell script) [22:08] <jrand0m> there have been a few more variations on the kademlia proto though to make things more relevent for i2p [22:09] <jrand0m> we will always have a very, very, /very/ sparse kademlia tree. [22:09] <jrand0m> 2^256 possible slots, and 1-10 values per peer in the network. [22:09] <jrand0m> so, thinking insanely overzealous, we still wont be using jack shit, and everything will be in the furthest out kbucket [22:10] <jrand0m> so some parts of kademlia are going to be quietly ignored ;) but the basic gist stays the same, including the search algo & distance metric [22:10] <jrand0m> idn, however, is dead in the water. [22:11] <jrand0m> the idea that i2p's netDb code could run off the same code as a publishing DHT was a silly little idea [22:11] <jrand0m> and has been promptly abandonded. [22:11] <jrand0m> idn is still generally a good idea, but I'm not going to spend my i2p dev time working on it [22:12] *** tusko (~tusko@anon.iip) has joined channel #iip-dev [22:12] <jrand0m> but part of the 0.2.3 changes include a dramatic revamp of how we choose peers and organize router stats [22:12] <jrand0m> heya tusko [22:12] <jrand0m> that brings us to agenda item 3) peer profiling [22:12] <jrand0m> I've been pretty silly...and finally did some of the math [22:13] <jrand0m> the stats being gathered now are immense. [22:13] <jrand0m> about 6000 data points /per peer/ [22:13] <duck> what is peer profiling? [22:13] <jrand0m> peer profiling is where the router keeps track of the performance of each peer so that it can decide who to use in the future [22:13] <duck> ah [22:13] <jrand0m> (aka fast routers, reliable routers, etc) [22:13] <duck> the process that eats up my memory :) [22:14] <jrand0m> heh actually that part isn't toooo bad [22:14] <jrand0m> though 6000 data points won't scale. [22:14] <jrand0m> 1000 routers @ 6000 data points each @ 4 bytes / data point = 24Mb [22:15] <jrand0m> though keeping detailed stats on a few hundred peers is probably fine, even as the net grows beyond that [22:15] <jrand0m> we /don't/ need to keep stats on everyone. just routers we want to 'use' for our tunnels, garlic routing, and source routing. [22:16] <jrand0m> we could probably get away in the long term with just keeping track of a hundred or so peers. [22:16] <jrand0m> but, for now, I'm going to say fuckit. [22:16] <jrand0m> keep stats on all peers [22:16] <duck> ping [22:16] <jrand0m> p0ng [22:17] <duck> will it try to learn about all peers? [22:17] <jrand0m> right now, yes [22:17] <duck> oh wait, your last lines covered that [22:17] <jrand0m> we also have some code for coallescing and running calculations on the peer profiles [22:18] <jrand0m> so one of those calculators will determine what peers to drop [22:18] <jrand0m> an example of the data set being collected: (Link: http://i2p.dnsalias.net/~jrandom/profile.txt)http://i2p.dnsalias.net/~jrandom/profile.txt [22:19] <jrand0m> (you'll notice lots of 0s :) [22:19] <jrand0m> I've written up a rough manifesto for peer selection and profiling, but need to get that onto the wiki [22:20] <jrand0m> but thats all 0.3 stuff, really. 0.2.3 just uses a little of it [22:21] <jrand0m> ok, thats it for the peer profiling. lots more later, just giving a lil view into whats up [22:21] <jrand0m> (of course, as always, anyone who wants to get down and dirty and figure out what other stats / calculations / attacks / etc should be used would be *very* much appreciated) [22:22] <jrand0m> ok, 4) i2p services [22:23] <jrand0m> tc's site is awesome & really reliable! I finally got to nightblade's page as well, and its a cool blog ('plog' ;).. I just wish I could leave comments :) [22:23] <jrand0m> there's also duck's jabber server, which works fairly easily with the instructions posted to tc's board [22:24] <jrand0m> things sometimes act up a bit, but thats related to some bugs in the router <= 0.2.2, and have been fixed (and will roll out in 0.2.3) [22:24] <jrand0m> the squid proxy is generally offline, since I'm offline too much to babysit my kaffe routers :/ [22:25] <jrand0m> so for the moment, the eepsites and the jabber chat is probably the most reliable things on i2p, all running on top of i2ptunnel [22:25] <jrand0m> what services would be cool to show up next? [22:25] <duck> I did try to run an ircd over i2ptunnel [22:25] <duck> but before it got the full MOTD after logging in, I got ping timeouted already [22:26] <jrand0m> d'oh [22:26] <duck> and that was on the same router [22:26] <duck> so in the wild performance will be even worse [22:26] <jrand0m> on the local router it pinged out?! [22:26] <jrand0m> local router should never ping anything out [22:26] <jrand0m> oh, except for that race bug [22:26] <jrand0m> (which is probably what it was, since it was local and the race is faster there) [22:26] <duck> irc client pinged out for not responding in time [22:27] <duck> I'll retry with 0.2.3 [22:27] <jrand0m> word [22:27] <duck> though jabber is nice for now [22:27] <jrand0m> totally [22:27] <jrand0m> and long term, irc is not the way to go [22:27] <duck> tc, jrandom and me are there to chat with! [22:27] <jrand0m> hehe :) [22:28] <jrand0m> we need an IM and group chat solution that doesn't give cleartext to anyone unauthorized, and doesn't require centralized choke points [22:28] <jrand0m> (aka iip 2.0) [22:28] <jrand0m> now would be a nice time for userx to come back into the fold ;) [22:29] * jrand0m stops holding breath [22:29] <jrand0m> an nntp server would /also/ really really rule. [22:29] <duck> I'll try that tomorrow [22:29] <jrand0m> r0x0r [22:30] <duck> jabber is really nice to run other things over [22:30] <duck> check out the jabber rpc specs [22:30] <duck> (Link: http://www.pipetree.com/jabber/jrpc/)http://www.pipetree.com/jabber/jrpc/ [22:30] <duck> other services? [22:30] <jrand0m> thats interesting - doing jabber as a naming service, essentially [22:31] <duck> you mean: [22:31] <jrand0m> there will always be more services to add - with mail (usenet), chat (jabber) and publishing/browsing (eepsites), there's good coverage [22:31] <duck> name server has a jabber client through which you can register names (provided token) [22:31] <duck> also use it to query? [22:31] <jrand0m> naw [22:32] <jrand0m> jabber's registry being the naming service [22:32] <duck> ok [22:32] <jrand0m> its centralized but it works [22:32] <jrand0m> just like hosts.txt :) [22:33] <duck> are there mail solutions that are better suited for there environments than smtp and pop/imap ? [22:33] <jrand0m> thats a really good question [22:33] <duck> cause I dont think that it will just work when you hook up mail servers [22:34] <jrand0m> yeah, it'd probably need either a gateway (ala freemail) or the naming service doing some interesting tap dancing [22:34] <jrand0m> or it reverts back to centralized single POP3/IMAP server with everyone on the same server [22:35] <duck> I spoke with aum (author of freemail) yesterday [22:35] <duck> he was talking about reimplementing fred in python [22:35] <jrand0m> lol nice [22:35] *** mrflibble (mrflibble@anon.iip) has joined channel #iip-dev [22:35] <duck> so I did suggest him to work on the python routers for i2p instead [22:35] <jrand0m> ooh that would TOTALLY rule! [22:35] <duck> then he got totally upset about the pdf documents [22:36] <jrand0m> hey, if he wants the openOffice originals, or even a txt export I'll export [22:36] <duck> and I lost my patience and told him that you would also have the m$word docs if he did ask nicely [22:36] <duck> well, you were a fuckhead for not doing a html export or something [22:36] <jrand0m> naw, I tried that ;) [22:36] <duck> I lost my patience and told him to talk to you [22:36] <jrand0m> the openOffice html export SUCKS [22:37] <duck> hm [22:37] <mrflibble> true jr [22:37] <jrand0m> when the specs turn 1.0 (aka when the router turns 1.0 and they're updated to match the code), they'll be on the wiki. [22:37] <duck> wiki has most info though [22:37] <jrand0m> exactly [22:37] <mrflibble> i tried using that for that kevin mitnick book. it was worse than ms office [22:37] <duck> oh well [22:37] <jrand0m> zactly. [22:37] <duck> he might appear here once [22:37] <jrand0m> that'd be awesome [22:38] <duck> but maybe it is better with his attitude to join the freenet gang [22:38] <duck> ... [22:38] <jrand0m> well, effort on freenet is always a good thing [22:38] * duck goes back to beeing friendly [22:38] <jrand0m> :) [22:38] <duck> aums work rocks [22:38] <duck> hopefully he'll rock on i2p [22:39] <jrand0m> yeah whenever someone talked about searching on freenet, I always just said "well just do a McNabb" [22:39] <jrand0m> we need the help, certainly [22:39] <duck> which brings me to the following question: [22:39] <duck> are the changes to I2P that you do specced? [22:39] <duck> or is the java source the documentation for the latest info [22:40] <jrand0m> there are notes taken in my palmpilot, filesystem, and notebook, but unfortunately I haven't updated the openoffice docs in a while [22:40] <jrand0m> feb is doc-month for jrandom. [22:40] <jrand0m> (and qa, and bugfixing) [22:41] <jrand0m> ((and benders ;)) [22:41] <jrand0m> the specs are still pretty much correct, there are just more details. [22:41] <duck> awesome [22:41] <jrand0m> but the datastructures have had more changes [22:42] <jrand0m> ok, anything else for services? [22:43] <jrand0m> ok, 5) stuff [22:43] <jrand0m> hi [22:43] <duck> hi! [22:43] <jrand0m> how's tricks? [22:43] <jrand0m> [any questions / thoughts / issues / etc go here] [22:43] <duck> the base64 tricks should be added to the i2ptricks pages [22:44] <jrand0m> ooh good point [22:44] <duck> might be some other tricks too that I dont know yet [22:44] <duck> will grep the sources for 'main' [22:44] <jrand0m> I feel guilty for not having the installer let someoene automatically fetch hosts.txt and reseed [22:44] <jrand0m> lol [22:44] <jrand0m> there are lots and lots of main() methods, but they're mostly test functions [22:45] <jrand0m> oh! [22:45] <jrand0m> one thing. DONT run the current code from cvs and expect it to work with normal routers. [22:45] *** joda (--@anon.iip) has joined channel #iip-dev [22:45] <joda> hi [22:45] <jrand0m> the db messages changed :) [22:45] <jrand0m> hi joda [22:45] <joda> sorry, if I interrupt something [22:45] <duck> I got a bit upset that I couldnt get cvs to work [22:45] <duck> but then I did remember that this isnt freenet [22:45] <joda> I was just wondering what happend to "anonymail" ? [22:46] <duck> so you dont need latest cvs to be able to use it [22:46] <jrand0m> joda> the user who runs it doesn't seem to be online at the moment. should be back soon [22:46] <jrand0m> hehe duck - did it fail for you today after I committed, or do you mean from before today? [22:46] <duck> last week somewhere [22:46] <joda> jrand> thx :) [22:46] <joda> cu :) [22:46] <jrand0m> ah 'k duck [22:46] <jrand0m> l8r joda [22:47] <jrand0m> yeah, I only endorse running the released code [22:47] <duck> will 0.2.3 put the version files in a directory? :) [22:47] <jrand0m> 0.2.3 gets rid of the version files :) [22:47] <jrand0m> (lots and lots and lots of changes) [22:47] <jrand0m> but that means 0.2.3 (and beyond) will require g enerally correct clocks [22:48] <jrand0m> (current Router.CLOCK_FUDGE_FACTOR = 30 minutes) [22:48] <duck> what will the fudge facter be for 0.2.3? [22:48] <jrand0m> probably the same [22:49] *** joda has left #iip-dev [22:49] <duck> oh, current = your code [22:49] <jrand0m> that time will be used to expire db entries [22:49] <duck> k [22:49] <jrand0m> ah, right, yeah :) [22:49] <jrand0m> (in 0.2.2 that clock_fudge_factor is spread out throughout half a dozen files) [22:49] <duck> maybe the installer could be a bit more userfriendly [22:49] <duck> as in less questions [22:49] *** Signoff: nickthief66282 (Excess Flood) [22:50] <duck> default phttp urls included, no bandwidth limiting etc [22:50] <jrand0m> I guess we could autoguess random ports too [22:50] <jrand0m> you're right [22:50] <jrand0m> want commit privs? :) [22:50] *** Signoff: nerox (EOF From client) [22:50] <jrand0m> (if not I can update it for 0.2.3) [22:51] <duck> an argument against it can be that users will take settings too easily for granted [22:51] <duck> and everybody uses the same phttp relay [22:51] *** nickthief24373 (~chatzilla@anon.iip) has joined channel #iip-dev [22:51] <jrand0m> true. though 0.3.1 plans include an update to the phttp relay code to let relays talk to each other, and redirect users to a less loaded relay [22:52] <jrand0m> i'm generally happy with the install process atm though - i built a new 0.2.2 install and was browsing tc's page in under a minute [22:52] <jrand0m> (though thats because i know what all the text says and didn't read it...) [22:52] <duck> I dont like the long keys [22:53] <duck> especially not if you have to copy&paste them [22:53] <duck> better use them as file [22:53] <jrand0m> hmm? [22:53] <duck> but distributing the binary files are a pain [22:53] <duck> so you have to do the base64 trick.. [22:53] <duck> could the i2ptunnel read base64 destination keys too? [22:53] <duck> from a file that is [22:53] <jrand0m> I was just typing that ;) [22:53] <jrand0m> yeah, that wouldnt be much work [22:54] <jrand0m> perhaps even 1 line [22:54] <duck> also, what about armouring? [22:54] <duck> with a header&footer [22:54] <duck> like pgp etc [22:55] <jrand0m> true, it would be useful to have that sort of validation [22:55] <duck> ofcourse that is a gadget [22:55] <duck> but it could be helpful for those who want to use the tunnel [22:55] <jrand0m> though the Destination structure itself is pretty picky [22:55] <jrand0m> but you're right, a raw base64 isn't the most intuitive or safe thing to pass around [22:56] <jrand0m> we need a bugzilla [22:56] <jrand0m> so things like this can get posted as todo [22:56] <jrand0m> i'd move off my palm's todo list for that [22:56] <duck> bugzilla has nazi registration requirements [22:56] <duck> with emails etc.. [22:56] <jrand0m> true [22:57] <duck> but better as nothing [22:57] <duck> other bugtrackers all have their shortcomings [22:57] <jrand0m> yeah, every company i've worked at has pretty much ended building their own [22:58] <jrand0m> we'll see. we need a bugtracker by the time we start doing full on qa (once 0.3 comes out) [22:58] <jrand0m> so we've got a few weeks ;) [22:58] <jrand0m> but if someone did some research and found a really nice one, that'd be great [22:59] <jrand0m> [not you specifically duck, anyone who's reading these meeting logs at home ;)] [22:59] <duck> so far phpBugTrackers has been okay for me [22:59] <jrand0m> hmm haven't used that [22:59] <duck> yes, I am not talking to jrandom either [22:59] <jrand0m> lol [22:59] <duck> but to the group of I2P code developers :) [22:59] * jrand0m is actually 12 people acting under a single nym [23:00] <jrand0m> ok, 1 hour, on the dot [23:00] <jrand0m> anyone else have anything before I get the *baf*er out? [23:01] * duck demands 1 more minute [23:01] <duck> since we did start on 21:02 [23:01] <jrand0m> yeah yeah [23:01] <jrand0m> la la la [23:01] <jrand0m> what should i have for dinner? [23:01] <jrand0m> there's a nice falafel place next door... [23:01] <jrand0m> had gnocci for lunch too [23:01] <jrand0m> hmm... [23:01] <jrand0m> maybe a liquid dinner [23:02] <duck> soup? [23:02] <jrand0m> ooOooo whiskey soup! [23:02] * jrand0m *baf*'s the meeting closed on that note